A Wheelie Good Chat

30. Being Present But Unseen with Asha Callaghan

• Sam Cole

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What happens when you're consistently rendered invisible in your own conversations? Sam and her friend Asha unpack the frustrating and bizarre experience of being ignored or spoken over simply because of having a visible disability.

This raw conversation explores the psychological impact of having questions redirected to companions instead of being addressed directly. Sam shares how these everyday interactions make her question her worth and visibility in society, while Asha offers a unique perspective as someone who witnesses these exchanges firsthand. Together they navigate the complicated dynamics: when should friends intervene, and when might well-intentioned support actually reinforce harmful stereotypes?

Beyond just highlighting problems, this discussion reveals how unconscious bias manifests in multiple ways – from outright ignoring someone to the equally problematic behavior of excessive praise for ordinary activities. "It's amazing that you're out today!" might seem like a compliment, but actually reveals deeply held assumptions about disability and independence.

Whether you have a disability, know someone who does, or simply want to be more conscious of how you interact with others, this episode offers valuable insights. Sam and Asha don't just identify problematic behaviours – they suggest practical approaches for having better conversations about support and advocacy, and remind listeners that being nervous about saying the wrong thing is far better than avoiding interaction altogether.

Thanks for listening, we really appreciate the ongoing support! Follow the podcast on Instagram @awheeliegoodchat and Sam @sam.bamalama

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Sam:

Before we begin, we would like to acknowledge the traditional customs of country throughout Australia and their connection to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to the Elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all First Nations peoples today. I'm your host, Sam Cole and this is A Wheelie Good Chat, where we divulge areas of my life yes, even not so PG ones, if you're a first-time listener. Thank you so much for joining a bit of a backstory on myself.

Sam:

I have a neuromuscular condition called dystonia and I started this podcast with my friend Joel to break stigma and normalise conversations around disability within society. So we really hope that you stick around for future episodes. Hey everyone, today we're diving into something that's really frustrating and bizarre and, honestly, just a bit plain rude, if you ask me, the topic of conversation for today is just being ignored in your own conversations and, how you know, that kind of spirals into other mentality that you may have for yourself. I'm really looking forward to this episode, as I've got a special guest joining us, and yeah, it's Asha. She's one of my gals, so hello, Asha.

Asha:

Hello, thank you for having me on. I'm very excited to be here.

Sam:

No, thank you for joining and, if you don't mind, telling us a little bit about yourself.

Asha:

Yeah, my name's Asha. I am 21. So I think I'm one of Sam's youngest gals. I am studying psychology. I'm in my honours year this year, so fourth year I think Sam and I have known each other we were just chatting the other day. I think it's coming up on about a year and a half now, which is crazy because I think it's gone so quickly, but also feels like I've known you forever. So about time we got ourselves on the podcast together because we love to have a bit of a yap.

Sam:

So, yeah, absolutely, and I do just want to say Asha has gone through the process of being a Lifeline Crisis Supporter, which I'm so proud of, and yeah, she's in her mentoring stage.

Asha:

Sam did definitely inspire my Lifeline journey, I think, being in that environment and seeing like you're so amazing at it, obviously and it seemed really rewarding and fulfilling, so I'm very excited about that opportunity as well.

Sam:

Yeah, and I'm sure you'll be amazing at it. You know, takes a special person to even, like you know, think about it and proceed further. Yay for Asha. So I thought it was like a great opportunity for someone like yourself to be in on this conversation because I guess you know, you see firsthand of, like you know, people not addressing me.

Asha:

Yes, no, I think it's definitely something that I was aware of the issue previously, but it's not something that I realized. Just how frequently it happens until I started hanging out with you and when we're in public, and the frequency that these things occur and that people speak down to or literally don't actually address you in the conversation is astonishing, and I'm just every time I'm shocked, like you think that it would get less shocking the more that it happens, but it's just every time. I am gobsmacked. It's a very difficult situation to be in.

Sam:

So, leading on from that, I think there was a time when, like you're like, do I say something or do I just kind of like look away and ignore them? So it'd be interesting to hear how, like you know, you kind of feel about that side of things.

Asha:

Like trying to navigate the situation. I think it's a very difficult position because obviously you see anyone treating your friend or someone you care about disrespectfully. You want to stand up and support them and that's like my instinctive reaction. But I think that you have to be super careful navigating a situation where you could potentially be reinforcing people's negative beliefs and stereotypes, because if someone is choosing to speak to me or someone else that you're with instead of you, it comes back to a lot of stereotypes about your independence, your ability and your capacity to have these conversations and I think, whether intentionally or not, me stepping in and not allowing you to speak for yourself in that situation, even if it is me standing up for you, could potentially be reinforcing those stereotypes and it can make those people think, oh well, I was probably right to speak to that person because you know she's not standing up for herself, she's getting a friend to stand up for her or this other person to stand up for her, and it's kind of. You know, I shouldn't have to think that way, but I think you do definitely have to be careful about the message that you are potentially contributing to.

Sam:

Yeah, no, that's exactly it. And I can't imagine, I guess, from your perspective, how frustrating that must feel. Yeah, I guess, like, on one hand, like you want to step in and say, no, this isn't right, like no Sam's asking the question, kind of thing, or whoever you're with, but then you know, like you said, you don't want to like reinforce the behavior by stepping in. So I can't imagine the mental turmoil that you're kind of, I guess, consuming. I know this might be a bit dramatic, but like, hey, let's be dramatic.

Asha:

It is a dramatic situation though, because obviously, feeling like you're not being supportive if you're staying quiet, but then, like we were saying, not wanting to reinforce the stereotypes it's quite a difficult thing to navigate. I think it is situational like there are times where it probably is appropriate if you've said something and I can like back you up after you've said something as like a support, but I don't think it's ever the right thing for me to be making the initial comment, because you might have just been like I didn't want to bring that up. Actually, I wanted to just leave that situation because it wasn't worth it, and I don't think it's ever my discretion to make that judgment and that call for someone else.

Sam:

Yeah, let's think of a scenario where, like that interaction happened. I guess, like how did that make you feel at the time? Afterwards, how did you kind of process it?

Asha:

Yeah, I was very caught off guard the first time it happened, because it was just unlike anything I'd ever experienced before and it just was eye-opening in a very unpleasant way. And, yeah, I honestly just was lost for what to do, because obviously I didn't want to do anything that would make you uncomfortable, like I wasn't really sure how to go about it. So I thought, oh my God, I just I'm not going to do anything, I was just lost for words. Like even now, speaking about it and reflecting on it, it's still something that's super difficult to process.

Asha:

I feel like every time we step away from those situations, you and I just look at each other and we're like, oh my God, oh my God, and we just sit in the car for like 10 minutes just going, oh my God, oh my God, and it's no other word apart from just shock. I cannot believe that a human would act that way, and I think that the fact that I feel that way and it wasn't even directed at me then I feel like I can't even imagine how it feels for you. So it's a really shitty situation to be in.

Sam:

I guess this conversation, you know, we just want to kind of break the stigma of having to address someone who's with the other person who needs support, in whatever capacity that is.

Asha:

I mean, it's a horrible feeling for me, so I can't even imagine how it feels for you in those situations. Maybe if you wanted to talk a little bit about that.

Sam:

Yeah, I guess when I stop and like actually think about it, it's pretty fucked up to put it simply yeah, yeah to put it simply yeah, or definitely not nicely, I think, just because, like I've had to deal with it most of my life and and, like I said, stop and think about how disgusting it is I might just be asking about a top in a particular size, or whatever it may be, and to not be addressed. It's just kind of. It really kind of puts me in a really kind of difficult situation because I don't like I guess I mean it might be similar to like what you were saying the fact that I don't want to. You know, go, oh, why aren't you talking to me? Like it's about me. I ask the question.

Sam:

I don't want to come off aggressive, but then again I don't want to come off like soft and like weak and don't care. I really want to advocate for myself, but, like you were saying, there's time and place and I can advocate for as much as I want, but it's really exhausting to have to always be advocating for myself and 100% yeah, and always thinking like, like, if I say this, like, oh, it's actually for me, can you please like direct your comment towards me? That in itself is like, why do I always have to be the person who sticks up for myself?

Asha:

Yeah, it's like a huge responsibility to put on. You say you've been, you know out, we've been shopping or we've been wherever you. Probably you've had a long day of like two or three or four hours. You've been to the gym before. You don't want to be using your energy having like an argument with someone when you don't know how they're going to respond and it's so like draining.

Sam:

So, when I was like late teenager, I would have definitely like got a lot more aggressive. So I guess, in fairness to myself, I have improved by, like you know, just kind of letting it kind of go. But if it's like an obvious someone who should know better, like, say, for example, a health professional, I would definitely say something. But if it's someone I'm never going to see again or, like you know, isn't going to take on my, I guess, feedback in a way, I wouldn't really waste my energy because I'm like they're not going to take on, then I'm going to listen, then they're not probably going to understand what I'm saying, they're probably just going to think.

Asha:

Yeah, and that's like you don't want people to pity you, just them to understand. And like the fact that you said it occurs across so many different situations, like even though we were talking about like the shops, or like something that might not seem super serious to someone. Like the fact that it even occurs, like when you're speaking to the pharmacist, when you're even like at the doctors at job interviews, like you spoke about in your previous episodes, like it's not confined to any one space, it's like very widespread.

Sam:

Very much widespread. Reflecting back on my other episodes, I guess it kind of shows a multitude of different I'm not saying reasons but like you know, I think the episode where I did about representation in the media, I think that's a great starting point to have you know people with, like visible disabilities within the media.

Asha:

Yes, I think that that definitely like not seeing yourself reflected in the media, as some. Like not seeing people with disabilities being reflected, as you know, independent, capable, having their own lives. You know all of these things. People don't realize how much that actually affects your subconscious and your perceptions of people in the real world.

Sam:

Oh, definitely, and I guess, like I was probably repeating myself, let's just roll with it.

Sam:

When, like, someone doesn't direct their comment or question towards me, that really affects, I guess I wouldn't say my confidence, because I don't think I lack in confidence, but more about my self-worth of am I seen in society? Am I worthy of being just participate in just like no shopping or being out in a cafe?

Asha:

It makes you question like oh, if everyone's treating me this way, is this sort of what I deserve, in a way?

Sam:

Yeah, yeah, no, no, that's it.

Asha:

And I think also that goes back to like we speak about these experiences and them being. They come across super negatively. But it's also super important, I think, that people recognize that people can be discriminatory even if they're not being obviously negative, If the thing they're saying doesn't have to be offensive or rude, like actually being ridiculously overly nice and speaking down to someone as if they are incapable of understanding what you're saying. I think that one comes actually probably more frequently because people might have good intentions but they'll come up to you and go oh honey, is there anything I can get you? Can I help you with anything? And it's like I didn't ask for your help. You don't go up to everyone else.

Sam:

I guess the fact like when people do talk down to me, it's one extreme to another, like you know, either completely ignoring me or talking down to me like I'm a little child. Nobody wants to be talked down to, Nobody wants to be ignored. Is it like the awkwardness of talking to someone with a disability? Is it the uncomfortability of looking at someone and going, oh no, what happens if they, like you, you know, jump when I'm talking to them? Maybe the arm might jump or something like that. I don't know. I don't think we're going to have a epiphany of why.

Asha:

I do think that that is definitely one of the reasons, though, like people don't know how to engage because they are so worried about, like, being potentially offensive. I remember you talking about being like in the elevator with that mum and people speak to their child and they say, oh no, you can't say that you can't ask those questions and it's because you know maybe your intention is good and you're trying not to be offensive, but there's nothing to be scared of about someone who is a little bit different to you. Like that's not it's not a scary thing.

Sam:

Shutting down the child, and from an early age? If they're not, what am I trying to say?

Asha:

Like exposed?

Sam:

Yeah, exposed. Or if a child asks this question and they're shut down there, I guess their whole life is going to be you can't talk about people with disability. All kids are curious. That's all that kid wanted just to know why some people in the wheelchair.

Asha:

Yeah, and that it wasn't a like mean thing for him to say, that's a completely genuine and like reasonable question, and then I think that definitely translates. If you're thinking, oh, we can't ask questions, we can't ask about this, then that probably does translate into people thinking they can't speak to you, which is so horrible.

Sam:

Yeah, it really is a horrible thought to think that, like just because someone hasn't been exposed or grown up with someone with a disability, whatever form that is, that they don't know how to interact, which is so sad, but then again I honestly think it comes down to the person. So most of you girls haven't really had much exposure.

Asha:

I get what you're saying. No, like a lot of us don't have a close family member or a close friend or people that we've spent a lot of time with growing up who have a disability, so it's not something that we've been overly exposed to, and that doesn't mean that we don't know how to have a conversation.

Sam:

No, exactly, you know, you guys are decent humans, you treat me with respect and there was never that hesitation of oh, are they talking to me or are they looking at someone else?

Asha:

Yeah. So I think you definitely do give a little bit too much credit to people who are not good people, and as much there are reasons behind it, we're not saying them as if they are justifying the behavior. It's just kind of exploring potentially why people might be doing those things, but definitely not does not mean that it's okay why people might be doing those things, but definitely not.

Sam:

Does it not mean that it's okay? No, no, absolutely not.

Asha:

People who are overly nice. I think that one thing that comes up a lot is, aside from the patronising tone and the condescending speech, something that I think is super problematic is sort of trying to praise people with a disability for doing everyday things as if they wouldn't otherwise be capable of doing it, like, oh my god, you're so brave. People have come up to us a few times and be like oh, it's amazing that you're out and like, and it's like what, yeah, do you want me to just like stay in my house? Like what do you mean?

Sam:

Yes, this is a really good one. I don't know if it's personal preference, but like getting those. Oh, you're inspiring. The word inspiring, oh no, no no.

Asha:

I understand what you're saying, if it's coming from the right person and you know that it's genuine, but it does come from a place of oh. I would never assume that you would be able to do this. Therefore, I'm going to compliment you because I'm kind of shocked that you're doing this thing that I would have assumed wasn't possible for you.

Sam:

This may seem like a really like negative episode, but I guess we really want to like highlight just how I guess people's actions and people's words can really like affect someone's life or just day-to-day interactions. And yeah, it's just, I think it's like really important to highlight.

Asha:

Even though it might seem like just a one-off comment to other people, when you're hearing these things every single day, every time you have an interaction with someone, it's so draining and there's already so many barriers to people with disabilities, like engaging in community, going out, having fun, doing things that they should be able to do.

Asha:

These comments are just another barrier that could very easily wear someone down and make them not want to go out and have those interactions, because it's a very unpleasant experience and, like you say, often, you want to advocate for people who can't advocate for themselves and I think for someone who maybe wasn't as confident or outgoing and social as you, they probably wouldn't be able to bounce back from these things as easily as you might be able to. But I do think the unconscious bias is a really big thing because, like we said, a lot of the people in these situations have good intentions behind their actions and they don't realize that they're doing something that is actually really harmful, which I think is one of the reasons why it's so important to have this conversation, even if it is a little bit of a negative conversation, because I think there's probably a lot of good people out there who are just not aware that what they're doing is actually really detrimental.

Sam:

Do you reckon they're even aware?

Asha:

I don't think that they are aware of what they're doing, because so often we'll have like a middle-aged woman who's maybe 50 or 60, will be like in the chemist and they'll be like, oh I'm so sorry, like I'll move out the way, like do you want me to grab this for you? And you know that it's just like a bit of maternal instinct. They care about the younger generation, they care about just people in general and they're probably a good person. But speaking to someone like that is not helpful in the way that you think it is helpful and if you needed help, just like any other person, you would ask for help. It's not like they're looking at someone who's stacked it and like tripped over on the floor and then you say, oh, my god, you want help picking that up. That's an obvious situation where someone clearly does need help, but you assume that just because someone is in a wheelchair, that means that they clearly need help, when it's not the case at all.

Sam:

Is it the person's values or life experience, or is it like, the culture within the actual workplace?

Asha:

Yeah, because I think it definitely, like you said, comes back to people not having experiences throughout their life with people with a disability. Like we were saying earlier, it's making assumptions about people's intelligence, about people's capacity, about people's independence. I remember a man coming up to us in Freo and saying oh, do you want help getting in the car? Like da, da, da, and it's like how do you think we got here?

Sam:

Literally yeah.

Asha:

We're obviously fine. You're obviously fine. It's just like not thinking about things before you speak, and I think that that's such a big thing that we're always told to do, think before you say something, yes, but again it comes back to people don't realise that they're doing something wrong.

Sam:

Yeah, that's it.

Asha:

Yeah, I think that basically it's the whole point of this chat is that we just really want people to reflect on how they're interacting with people with disabilities and just all kinds of people in their everyday lives.

Sam:

I've learned that some people are just trying to be nice, trying to be helpful, or just are awkward around disability and that's on them, that's not on me and that's taken so long to understand for my own self, because years I've felt like I had to really voice what they were doing and how much it affected me. The fact that I can say, oh, look like it's about me, can you direct your question towards me? Is quite an empowering thing at times I know I said it's exhausting it can be an empowering thing, having the voice to say that. I guess that if I don't want to say anything because I'm not comfortable with the surrounding or the person who said it, I don't have to. Having that ability to choose just shows that I have got a voice and I've got a mind. All I want to do is just bring awareness to this. I guess it is an issue that people with disability face on a regular basis.

Asha:

Yeah, definitely, and being able to have those conversations is really important and people shouldn't shy away from that just because it's something that they don't necessarily know about.

Asha:

I think that it really reinforces these ideas of like ableism and people with disabilities not having agency a whole lot of things that it ties back into. It's hard to even think about them all. I feel like we'll probably end the recording and remember like 15 other things, because there's just so many parts that influence these perceptions that people have, and I think that that's part of the reason that it can be so frustrating and so difficult to navigate, because even if you feel like you're making progress and breaking down stigmas in one area and, like you said, you might have a conversation with someone about you know, hey, I would appreciate if you spoke to me. You're having a conversation with me, this is about me and they might respond to that really well, and's great progress, but it can feel really disheartening when you realize just how many forces there are that kind of feel like they're going against you and contributing to this huge issue of ableism in society.

Sam:

That's actually really beautifully said. It's more than just addressing it straight up. That's all well and good, nipping in the bud straight away, but then there kind of comes back to am I going to have to address this next time? Is it going to be the same person, so I won't have to worry about it? Yeah, so it's just feeds into, like you said, ableism and the bigger picture. Yeah, one piece of advice that I would love, as you guys listeners, to take away from this episode and through a chat that I've had with Asha today, is if you've got a friend, a family member or client who has a disability, I think it's really important to have that discussion with them. At what point do you want them to, you know, advocate for you? Is it straight away? Is it emailing the company who you know didn't talk directly to the person? But having that open conversation is really important because you don't want to go in presuming one thing and then offend your friend or family member by doing the other thing.

Asha:

Yeah, no, you don't want to offend them when you're trying to help them. So just in that conversation about the ways that someone wants to be helped and supported in those situations is super important.

Sam:

So important. How about, from your perspective?

Asha:

Having those conversations and similarly. Like if you're interacting with someone with a disability in a situation, maybe it doesn't have to be a friend or anyone. It can be a stranger and you're not really sure how to proceed in the situation. Like you shouldn't be afraid to ask questions, as long as you're asking them in a sensitive, genuine manner. If it's something that you wouldn't be comfortable being asked, probably don't ask the question, but if it's something that's a really simple, easy question, you shouldn't be afraid of having a conversation with someone just because they are different to you.

Sam:

Funny one when it comes to the questions and how to approach them. But yeah, I like the way that you said would you like to be asked that question? I think that's quite a good way of thinking about it actually. Yeah, but yeah anything else you would like to add to this discussion today, Asha?

Asha:

I think we've covered everything pretty well that I can think of off the top of my head now. Yeah, I think people just need to approach situations with a bit more sensitivity, a bit more consideration, but at the same time, don't allow yourself to be afraid of doing the wrong thing. That just means that you actually care, like I think being nervous potentially does mean that you probably have good intentions, comparatively to someone who just barges up and says something horrible. Obviously it's a completely different kettle of fish. But yeah, just being open to having those conversations with everyone in your life and people that you encounter.

Sam:

And I think that's a great place to finish on today's episode and thank you so much to Asha for joining me on this little chat. It was great to have that different perspective. And yeah, it was great to welcome you onto the episode.

Asha:

I know. I'm so happy you got my first one done.

Sam:

Thank you so much.

Asha:

Yeah, perfect thank you for having me and I look forward to hearing the episode.

Sam:

Thanks for listening to this episode. We really hope you enjoyed it. If you want to stay up to date, please follow A Wheelie Good Chat on Instagram, where I post the latest, and make sure you're following the podcast on your streaming platform. That's all for this episode. Stay safe, everyone.

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